Professor on the conflict between Russia and the West - the continuation of the battle of the civilizations of the Aryans and Erbins

2024 Author: Seth Attwood | [email protected]. Last modified: 2023-12-16 15:55

The discoveries of Anatoly Klyosov, Doctor of Chemistry, Professor at Harvard University, continue to excite representatives of the scientific world and ordinary people.

Breaking stereotypes, arguing against the "Russophobe clan" that has settled in the RAS is not an easy task.

Nevertheless, tens of thousands of results of DNA analyzes of Russians and representatives of other peoples speak in favor of Anatoly Alekseevich's position on the ancient origin of the Russian people.

Last year, the DNA Genealogy Laboratory opened in Moscow as a nice bonus to the already operating Academy. Those who are interested in their origin can undergo a genetic test with detailed interpretation, find out their roots.

Now its founder is moving on to options for a deeper analysis of the pedigree, and also constantly publishes interesting thematic materials on the network. The Kolokola Rossii correspondent managed to talk to Anatoly Klyosov on the eve of the metropolitan presentation of his new book, The History of the Aryans and Erbins. European West versus European East”. Our conversation began with her.

"Bell of Russia":Anatoly Alekseevich, who are the arias and erbines, and what does this have to do with the modern world?

A. K.:Aryans are carriers of the genetic haplogroup R1a, erbines are of the R1b group, but this was true for ancient times. Now no one will say that he lives in Kievan Rus. No one will say that Prince Vladimir was Soviet … The times of "pure" Aryans and Erbins are in the past.

The era of the Aryans - the period from 6000 years to the first millennium BC. Therefore, to say that modern Slavs are one hundred percent descendants of the Aryans is the same as weaving Kievan Rus into modern life. But if we look at the borders of modern states, we will see that the line from the Adriatic to the Baltic, dividing the East and West of Europe, is a kind of civilizational division of peoples. On our side, we fix on average 50% R1a and 5% R1b, and on the opposite side - 60% R1b and 5% R1a. There are no such coincidences. This suggests that in time immemorial "strength found strength", and neither side was able to go further on the mainland. And this status quo continues to this day.

CR:That is, the Aryans did not go anywhere and did not disappear?

A. K.:Of course. Their legacy is alive in modern people, despite the decline of a separate historical era. In addition to the Slavs, many peoples belong to their descendants: Pashtuns, Tajiks, Kyrgyz, descendants of the Scythians, etc. The only difference is in the antiquity of common ancestors. For the Russians, these are the ancient Aryans who lived about 4500 BC, for the descendants of the Scythian tribes - 1500 BC. The same, in general terms, applies to erbines. Moreover, after coming to the Pyrenees, when their culture of bell-shaped cups began to populate Europe, they were marked by the most powerful genocide of the local population.

CR:It turns out that it is no coincidence that now many in Russia are interested in Vedic culture. This is a very fashionable trend, as they say …

A. K.: Of course, although sometimes it reaches the point of absurdity. Such figures have their own chronology, they invent some kind of "Slavic-Aryans". Although it is clear that there cannot be any Slavic-Aryans from a scientific point of view - either Slavs or Aryans - after all, these are different eras. When the late Nikolai Levashov told that the Slavic-Aryans roamed space 800 thousand years ago, this is already beyond the bounds.

KR: Then I can't help but ask, where did the modern Russians come from?

A. K.: It's pretty straightforward. Ethnic Russians are a family, a union of clans with different histories, different migration routes, who converged on one territory and began to debug relations with each other about 4300-3500 years ago and did this throughout the entire period of the Fatyanovo culture. Today, the boundaries between genera have largely been erased. A typical Russian in terms of DNA genealogy is 50% R1a, 15-17% E2a and 14% N1с1.

The last haplogroup is mistakenly called Finno-Ugric, although this definition refers exclusively to the group of languages.

There are in Petrozavodsk and Karelia a small number of representatives of this group who speak Finnish-Ugric. In the questionnaires, they often write themselves as Karelians. Modern Russians have practically no Finns or Ugrians in their family. It is important for a Russian to consider himself as such, to call Russian his native language. So the Finns and Karelians automatically drop out of this sample.

Therefore, I emphasize: Russian is an alloy from different clans, but there are no Mongol clans, Tatar clans are minimized. Not a single real Tatar will say that his native language is Russian. He respects and values his language, his origin - and rightly so.

CR: In your works, you write a lot about Russophobia and, apparently, deeply researched this phenomenon. Share your findings - where do the current Russophobes come from, what motivates them?

A. K.: Russophobia is a worldview that is superimposed on certain personal reasons. And it happens that there are no special reasons. For example, many behave like anti-Semites, make appropriate statements, although Jews personally could not have done anything bad to them. Why doesn't anyone like blacks? Or Kyrgyz and Kazakhs? It is from such prejudices that a special worldview is formed, which is difficult to explain rationally. Now let's try to give a clear definition of Russophobia. First of all, it is expressed in causing certain harm (verbal, empirical, political). Let's say there are people who want to return Crimea back to Ukraine. They are actually doing harm by trying to implement this plan. This attitude towards the territorial integrity of Russia is, in my opinion, a clear manifestation of Russophobia.

Many still say: they say, we are against the current government, but we love Russia. Practice shows that this feeling of rejection later spreads to the entire Russian world. Let's take the same Navalny. When he brings his children to the demonstrations, he does it not because he does not like the government or the president - this is an obvious provocation, meanness towards the same teenagers, schoolchildren. And already in the new generation, the same Russophobia is being brought up …

Unfortunately, in modern Russia, Russophobia is pronounced. When we watch some kind of talk show, and we see a person declaring: "I am a patriot of Russia, but Crimea must be given!" Is an obvious lie. When they ask him: "What is your patriotism expressed in?" - the answer follows: "I want Russia to be better." But this is an absolutely false approach. Such people also say: "Eh, I should have lost the (Great Patriotic) War, they would have been drinking Bavarian beer now." So Vlasov thought: “we need to overthrow the regime, kill millions of people, but then everything will be fine in Russia” …

Similarly, in science - a huge number of people prove that the Normans (Scandinavians) laid the foundation of Russia, created statehood, introduced military affairs, diplomacy, crafts, etc. And the Slavs, they say, were dolts, they could not do anything - this is Russophobia in its purest form. It's like a litmus test for me. After all, all the data for the Norman theory are indirect. Somewhere out there in the city of the Rus they found a Scandinavian weapon, somewhere else something … That's all the evidence.

What drives Russophobes?

As I said above, they are driven by their worldview. A certain picture is drawn in their head, under which reality is adjusted.

CR: Don't you think that Russophobia is now acquiring the character of a civilizational conflict? In particular, there are people who adhere to traditional values, and there are their ardent opponents …

A. K.: Well, of course. Russophobes often say: "We want to be with the West, and this will make Russia better." For example, I am sure that Russia will not be better. After all, they never agree that the "alliance" with the West will be concluded exclusively on its terms - they simply will not agree to anything else. Having lived for almost 30 years in the West, I am absolutely convinced that none of their fulfilled conditions will help - this will be seen only as a manifestation of weakness. For example, if Crimea is returned, the United States and Europe will not love Russia with brotherly love. They will find something third, fourth … and so on endlessly.

Actually, I talk about this in my last book, The History of the Aryans and Erbins. For many thousands of years, the peoples of the haplogroups R1a and R1b migrated around the planet, almost without intersecting with each other. They developed different value systems, different habits, different cultures, attitudes towards others, the elderly, etc. When in the end they split, and R1a (descendants of the Aryans) firmly settled in Eastern, and R1b (descendants of the Erbins) - in Western Europe, it would seem that castling took place and their values were brought together, but the depths remained different.

-The current descendants of the Erbins are distinguished by more rational thinking, the primacy of jurisprudence. They love to come up with all sorts of laws and try to adhere to them firmly, further striving, through their implementation, to reformat the whole world for themselves.

- For the descendants of the Aryans, a deep spiritual search, less adherence to comfort, material wealth is characteristic. They also have a heightened sense of justice. And there is no end in sight to the struggle of these value systems.

KR: So this civilizational confrontation continues to this day? And we are not exaggerating when we declare that the West has been seeking to destroy Russia for centuries?

A. K.: When I watch Russian political talk shows, their participants are constantly asking questions: "Why is America pressing Russia, surrounding it with NATO military bases around the perimeter?" The basic answer is well known to me. Of course, this is a confrontation between two different civilizations, a struggle between rational and idealistic principles. By the way, genealogical relatives from India are very similar to us. Yogis, Buddhists, Brahmans develop contemplation, spiritual thinking, they meditate a lot …

- In the West, yoga has long become an ordinary gymnastics. The desire to know the harmony of the world around, to come into balance with oneself - in the West this is practically not and cannot be. There in the first place "rat race" - the race for their own well-being. People there live better economically, but this is achieved at the cost of losing the spiritual side. Then it is already taken for granted - people work, sparing no effort, to have their own house, so that each of their children gets a separate home and a car, so that comfort reigns in life. And from childhood they prepare for the "rat race" - these are their values.

- Russians, of course, are also gradually mastering this concept - they want to have similar material benefits, but the constant whipping up of themselves, participation in the race for money exhaust us very much, spoil our nerves and can easily break our lives.

CR: And it is impossible to reach a compromise with the West?

A. K.: As I said above, the West is a different civilization. Many historians do not know or do not think about different haplogroups and their origins. They love to talk about how the daughters of Russian princes were often given in marriage to Western princes. Yes, this took place, but one does not cancel the other.

There are many historical studies proving that the British special services have been trying for centuries to destroy Russia, to entice it into costly and dangerous military adventures, to prevent it from expanding its influence in Persia, in the Balkans …

A strong and influential Russia is endangering the very existence of Western civilization, so they seek to neutralize it.

CR: It turns out that the ideological confrontation is determined by genetics?

A. K.: No, most likely the opposite. Genetics does not determine, but accompanies these processes. When the paths of migration for millennia went independently of each other, different systems of values and different cultures developed. R1a and R1b in this case are not the root cause, but markers of opposition. Also with languages - the group of Indo-European languages is associated with R1a because representatives of this particular haplogroup inhabited the lands where they were distributed.

CR: And what would you say to the Ukrobanderites and other champions of the "purity of Slavic blood" who sincerely consider the Russians a "Mongoloid horde", Mordovians, or else they call us worse?

A. K.: This is all complete nonsense. Ukrainians and Russians are genetically almost the same. They are all one people, divided by political boundaries. But history, of course, suggests that the place of residence has an impact on a person. In my work about the "children of the boyars" I wrote that there were frictions between the "vile Cherkas" (in the reports to the governors they called the Cossacks so) and the inhabitants of central Russia. The first ones often engaged in unauthorized raids on neighboring lands, went as an army with carts without the command of their immediate superiors - for which they were punished. In the era of Peter I, hetmans constantly maneuvered between the Russians and the Turks, ran to bow to the Turkish khans and lyakhs.

- So the story was not easy, but the DNA genealogy clearly shows that the origins of Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Poles are practically the same.

The main marker for all is the haplogroup R1a (about 50%). They have various inclusions from other peoples, but the division on religious grounds is much more serious here: Russians are Orthodox, and Poles are Catholics. This was the reason for the centuries-old wars between Russia and the Commonwealth.

Let's remember the Civil War in Russia in 1918-1923. Both sides understood perfectly well that basically both there and there were Russian people, that they were one people, but it did not stop them from killing each other, moreover, brutally.

One can also recall the military confrontation between the industrial North and the agrarian South in the United States.

As you can see, the statements of rabid nationalists-Russophobes have nothing to do with reality. If you take one more aspect - marriages between clans - here everything is intertwined among Russians and Ukrainians in such a way that it is very difficult to untangle. For comparison, only a few marry between Arabs and Jews, so their family ties can be traced only at the level of statistical noise.

CR: That is, do you agree with the version of Russian historiography that Ukrainians were formed as an ethnic group and began to call themselves that way not earlier than the 19th century?

A. K.: I agree in many ways. If we take the end of the 17th century, the era of the Azov campaigns, we will see that this group associated itself more with the Poles, they did not call themselves Ukrainians at that time. Moreover, I have a copy of my great-grandfather's passport, issued in 1913. There is not a word about his "Ukrainianness", although his great-grandfather was a Cossack. Even if there was no such category in personal documents, what are we talking about? Ukraine, in fact, appeared at the moment when the victorious Bolsheviks began to divide the territory of Russia into republics. They literally carried a pen across the map in the offices - and divided them up.

Earlier, Catherine II called this region Novorossiya - after all, a lot of Russians lived there. I think that an echo of the religious wars of the past, in which the ancestors of today's Ukrainians participated, was the war "for the independence of Ukraine", from where the Banderaites came from. Why do many Ukrainians consider Banderites patriots? They stand in solidarity with them in their desire to live independently, and Russia, in their opinion, has always strongly hindered this. Now it will be extremely difficult for them to become friends again, to become one family with the Russians.

CR: But after all, all the "independence" of Ukrainians in fact boiled down to the Western choice, to that very civilizational path of the Erbins …

A. K.: I would say to a non-Russian choice. Previously, it was possible to talk about some kind of sovereignty of a separate small nation, but now, indeed, the choice is simple - either you go to the right or to the left. Just recently, a friend of mine told me that oligarchs who are not residents are buying up hundreds of thousands of hectares of black soil in Ukraine - now this has become the norm.

KR: Is it true that RAS is not enthusiastic about DNA genealogy and for what reasons?

A. K.: No, you can't say that. In fact, the Russian Academy of Sciences knows little about this topic, and has not expressed any unanimous opinion about it. But there is one laboratory in one institute that has been engaged in population genetics for the last decades. And when DNA genealogy appeared with an incomparably clearer scientific and calculation basis, it turned out that all these years it had been making incorrect calculations and giving insane dates (errors by three orders of magnitude or more). Pop geneticists had a simple choice: to admit that they had broken the wood earlier, or to start sling mud, attack and discredit the DNA genealogy.

They decided to take the simpler second path.

From a scientific point of view, they have nothing to show me, so the rush is absolutely ideological. So, at one of the conferences, the head of the laboratory of the Institute of General Genetics, Balanovsky said that my book on the origin of the Slavs was published by a publishing house that publishes the diaries of Hitler and Mussolini. Excellent scientific reasoning! That is, the study of the history of the Slavs is already fascism.

Therefore, a certain group of people simply began to put together their own clan within the RAS, assembled a team of 23 scientists who "condemned" my activity as pseudoscientific. At the same time, their criticism is completely insane: for example, they declare that one ethnic group is supposedly equal to one haplogroup. But this simply cannot be! And the Balanovskys directly declare that they do not understand my methods of work. This is how you need to learn in order to understand and discuss at the same level!

CR: Allow me a personal, but very interesting question in the context of your patriotic views. Why did you leave the USSR for the West?

A. K.: After I worked in the USA for a year, they began to squeeze me out of Soviet science, considering me "unreliable", even anti-Soviet - although I never was. For nine years I was banned from traveling abroad. I talked a lot about life in the United States, after which I was dubbed "the fifth column". I think that in America agents of the special services were spinning around me, but the same was the case with the scientists who came to the USSR - after all, there was a "cold war".

Even my scientific advisor at Harvard said: "They are interested in you …" In addition, I constantly communicated with emigrants, with the descendants of those who left Russia after the revolution, and this was strictly prohibited in those years. After the travel ban was lifted, I wrote a statement of the desire to work in America for two years. While working there, the Soviet Union ceased to exist …

CR: That is, you lacked something specifically in the scientific field? And how are you doing in the USA now?

A. K.: I was a laureate of the state prize, laureate of the Lenin Komsomol Prize, received a gold medal for my contribution to science and technology. My books and articles were published regularly - here it would be a sin for me to complain. But the fact is that, as the head of the laboratory, I could not go on a business trip, participate in international conferences. I felt this ceiling all the time. And at the end of the 80s, people fled from science to business, the outflow of specialists from the country began …

I was offered to work temporarily in the USA, then my scientific activity there went very well, and I decided to stay. But I have never been an emigrant - I did not hand over my passport to the OVIR, I was not deprived of my citizenship. Now I have dual citizenship - Russia and the United States. Well, living in America for those who work hard and have a good specialty, of course, is comfortable - what a sin to conceal. Now I can work without regard to money, finance exactly the activity that interests me. I am completely independent, I travel the world wherever I want and freely express my point of view on any issues.

CR: You are the President of the Academy and the Laboratory of DNA Genealogy, headquartered in Moscow. How do you assess the prospects of your discipline and what is its scientific authority at the present time?

A. K.: Prospects can be defined in different ways. For some, perspectives are when you enter state programs, when you are supported by the Russian Academy of Sciences. It is not visible yet. But there is also a purely scientific aspect: we are conducting mass testing of the population, in the future we plan to study fossil haplotypes. Recently, for the first time in the world, we raised the Khazar haplotypes and learned that most of them belong to the R1a branch.

And it is no coincidence that archaeologists did not find any Jewish symbolism in the Khazar burials. "Kagan" is the chief, hence the Kiev prince was called kagan in the annals. There is a version that the Jews were at the head of the Khazar Kaganate, but it has not been proven in practice.

In fact, these are steppe people with a purely "Scythian" haplogroup. Here's an interesting discovery. So there is room for development, but so far we have little strength, few human hands in the literal sense of the word. I am glad that young active children-enthusiasts appear who willingly enter our Academy. I hope that we have a worthy replacement growing up.